Ardra Shephard: I'm Ardra Shephard and this is Tripping on Air, a place to talk shit about what it's like to have MS. Normally I like to make everything about me, but MS also affects the people we love. So weighing in from the partner perspective is Alex Hajjar, my friend, whose wife also has MS. Join us monthly as we dish about everything from symptoms to stigma. If you have MS or you love someone who does, we want to connect with you. MS is, typically, diagnosed between the ages of 20 and 40, the reproductive years, give or take. Whether you have kids already or you're thinking about starting a family, MS or any chronic disabling illness may impact how you parent. There could be a whole podcast dedicated to parenting with MS and someone who is not us should totally make one, because neither Alex nor I are parents. But, Trippers, we are so pumped about our guest today, Rebekah Taussig, author of Sitting Pretty, a brilliant memoir about life with disability that I urge absolutely everyone to read. Rebekah has a PhD in Creative Non-fiction and Disability Studies. She's a teacher, a disabled mom, she has a bomb Insta. Rebekah doesn't have MS, but when it comes to navigating life with a disability, Rebekah has a lot of insight. Rebekah, welcome to the show. Rebekah Taussig: Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be in this conversation with you both. Ardra Shephard: Your book is so great. Our disabilities are quite different, but there's so much overlap in the way we experience the world, and you articulate it in a way that had me responding out loud in real time, "Yes, exactly that." And it's so readable and entertaining and engaging. It's a great resource for the non-disabled people in your life to understand what we're going through. I think Alex can speak to that. I feel it should be required reading, top five of my favorite books of all time. Rebekah Taussig: Thank you. Gosh. Alex Hajjar: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's so much in there about, well, dating with a disability and meeting people and cat calling. There's this one hilarious passage in the book about this cat calling experience that just burned itself into my brain. But you talk extensively about your partner and experience with a partner and what's required from them and what's wanted and what's needed. So it's not only eye opening, I think, for someone who doesn't know what's going on, but also for someone who's maybe new or beginning that journey, it's a guidebook. And it was super helpful to me and I just really enjoyed it. Rebekah Taussig: I'm so glad, that means the world to know. As you're sitting there writing it, "Who will ever read this? Who are the people that will connect with this?" And it really means the world to hear that your experiences with it were positive. Ardra Shephard: I mean, we can't wait to read what you're writing next, but right now we want to dig into parenting. Many people with MS are living with so-called invisible symptoms and yet disability progression is always a fear. And sometimes fear of progression prevents people with MS from starting a family in the first place. Culturally, we don't see disabled parents represented in media. Rebekah, how did this erasure impact your decision to start a family? Rebekah Taussig: Yeah, I always struggle to articulate how powerful the lack of representation can be to people. People who do see themselves represented in the world, I think it's really easy to take for granted what it's like to see yourself in all of these different stories. And I think, for me, especially when it comes to disability and parenting, that erasure made it really difficult for me. If I'm being honest, I think I would say it's still makes it difficult for me to see myself in this role and I mean that in enormous ways and tiny ways. So from the very beginning, "Can I do this? Can I be in this role? Am I physically equipped for it? Am I cut out for this? Should I be here?" But then also in just really specific tiny ways. There's so many quintessential mother images in the world: The mom who's up in the middle of the night pacing with her baby, bouncing and walking, or the mom pushing a grocery cart, or the mom holding out her hands for the toddler to learn to walk, all these images of what being a mother looks like. It's, "I can't fit into that and what does it look like for me?" And I really have struggled to imagine that. And I think I'm getting a little better at it as I'm two years in, so I am, literally, doing it, but I still sometimes struggle to see myself as a mom and I definitely did in those early days, struggled to imagine how we would do this. And my doctors never really wanted to talk about that either. I had doctors ... If I would ask at any point, it was, "Oh, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Who knows?" "Very helpful. Thank you." Ardra Shephard: I think that's just it. It's, who does know? Rebekah Taussig: [inaudible 00:05:30]. Ardra Shephard: I think there's a million books written about parenting, but it doesn't seem like there are a lot of resources out there or guidebooks for parents with disabilities. Rebekah Taussig: Right. I would google. I did so many Google searches with parenting and paralysis or parents and disabilities, and I'd read ... Multiple pages would just be non-disabled parents with disabled children, that's the only searches that would come up. So it was, "Oh, I guess, I don't exist," because disabled parents must not exist because there's nothing. I really struggled and I really struggled to find that. I do think that slowly, I think, in the years to come as more people think about this possible decision, there are a smattering of more resources. I think more things are coming together, but it's sparse, especially up against the overwhelming resources for non-disabled parents. There are parenting books on feminist parents and parents of twins and parents who only eat organic food and there are all kinds. Alex Hajjar: And there's no guidebook. Like you said, there's no guide, there's no playbook, and we need guidance. And I think that goes for a lot of representative issues in media and stuff you watch in movies. You think, "Oh, that's the appropriate way to act," but there's no guidebook for parenting with a disability and that's terrifying. Ardra Shephard: One of my readers commented that she was asked how she could even decide to have kids when she knows she'll eventually be disabled. Someone close to me said he didn't want to have kids because he didn't want to be a wheelchair dad. Alex's wife, Nicole, and I, were both advised by medical professionals not to have kids, despite there being no medical reason why MS should stop us. What advice do you have for dealing with ... I mean, it's ableism and internalized ableism, when thinking about parenting with a disability? Rebekah Taussig: Yeah. Oh, it's just such a punch in the gut. It's so real. It's so powerful. I think the book that I wrote, the book that we were talking about in the front end, I wrote that before I even knew I was pregnant. I found out I was pregnant 24 hours after I submitted the final manuscript for that book so that was not on my radar at all. But I was writing all about ableism. I knew what it looked like and I could point to it and I was really settled in myself as a disabled woman. I don't think I could have found out I was pregnant at a better time, so to speak, in terms of my own, I don't know, comfort level with disability. And I was not prepared for how deeply I would feel ableism and internalized ableism in becoming a parent. It knocked me over in a way I did not expect. So, I guess, maybe the first thing I would say, I feel hesitant to give advice because it's so hard and I don't know. I mean, for me, I think if I were to do this again, just being able to expect that a little bit more. To know, even if you are coming from a place of feeling really settled in your body, it's a new role. It's entering into a new space so there's just this vulnerability in trying something new. And the ableism that I received and felt in the world in this new role, if I would've experienced that, I don't know, microaggression, let's say, for example, just as myself, not as a parent, but just as myself, some of those things would've just rolled off my back, "Ugh. Annoying. Let's move on." But when you're in a new role, I think that it can be a lot harder to process or let it roll off your back. So, I guess, the first thing I would say is just, "No. That's an adjustment. That's going to be hard." But having, I think, that expectation of knowing that this will feel different and could be really hard because of that, would be helpful. I was not prepared. I did not expect that. But I think beyond that, just practically, I think becoming very aware of, and being able to point to and name something as ableism, is really helpful. I think so often in the world that we live in, ableism is so deeply a part of the fabric of our constructions, our stories, our beliefs, that it can just feel true. It can just feel like facts. It can just feel like, "Oh, being a wheelchair dad is worse than being a standing dad." Or, "What these doctors are saying, it must be true. It must be the only way to think about it." And I think being able to identify it and see it and name it, and say, "Oh, that is a story that people are telling and have made up and we've ascribed meaning to and added stigma onto," and being able to point to it, even if it still stings, has been helpful to me. And, I guess, the last- Ardra Shephard: I love that point, Rebekah. I love that point because no ... But so often these comments get a pass of, "Oh, well, they mean, well." Or they're just concerned about you or the kid, or all of these things get a pass without being able to say, "You know what? Maybe we should investigate this a little bit. Maybe that comment is bullshit." Rebekah Taussig: Yeah. Yes. And maybe they don't actually know because I'm the one with this body. I think I probably know a whole lot more about what I am and am not capable of or how I could imagine a different way of doing this than these other people, that I don't think that we are really encouraged to think about it that way and we have a million other voices that are encouraging us to think about it this other way. So, I guess, the last thing I would say, name it, know it, but then we got to find a way to tell a different story. So figuring out, leaning into that for ourselves, "What is this story? What do I want? What am I capable of?" And I think, for me, a huge part of that was surrounding myself with other disabled parents, parents who are thinking about it this way. And that was a huge deal-breaker for me, people. Alex Hajjar: It sounds like, again, another lack of resources because it's not like the doctor said, "X." And, like I said earlier, they know more about what a doctor knows about, medical stuff. So I feel I should trust that so that's why I don't speak and I didn't speak up at the time or whatever. Is there a group for partners that are going through this and want to know how to ask their partners that have gone through that or with people with disability? It's a bit of a mess when it comes to it. But you're talking about being super surprised that this is a new role. But what about parenting has surprised you the most? Rebekah Taussig: So much has surprised me. I mean, if I'm being really honest, I think this is not a fun surprise for me to learn about myself. But I think that this is may be a two-pronged surprise. I didn't realize how much I expected to be able to mold my child like a little piece of clay. I was just going to read him these books and not encourage these things and he would just be easy for me to understand in that way. And he is not a piece of clay that I have molded. He came to us very much himself. He's not a mini-Rebekah and he is not a mini-Micah. He is himself. And it is just ... I mean, it's wonderful and terrifying and it's all of that just to watch, "Oh, you are separate from me. You are your own person." I didn't realize ... I don't think I would've talked about it that way, "Oh, yes, I think I'll be able to just decoupage this baby and make him into whatever, but he's his own person." So, I guess, I'm surprised to realize or grapple with how much of parenting is really just me keeping him safe, helping him keep himself safe and just trying to help him harness just this, I don't know, planet of energy that he is. So, yes, it's always a lot. Ardra Shephard: I mea, that feels like a very universal experience to have as a mom, right? Rebekah Taussig: Yeah, I hope so. I hope we all get to the point of realizing that, if we don't know it all ready. Separate people, how can we just help you be more of you? Alex Hajjar: Yeah, that's a really good point. So it's wondering what is most physically challenging about parenting with a disability? And if you have any life hacks that goes along with that? Rebekah Taussig: Yeah, I think, for me, for my particular disability, I don't even know if we've even said this. Maybe, Ardra, maybe you introduced this. I use a wheelchair to get around so I'm paralyzed. And so, for me, the biggest physical challenge tends to be around transportation, transporting him. So when he was really little it was figuring out how do I push my wheelchair and carry him at the same time? Or how am I going to get him in the car? And now he's running everywhere at the speed of light. And so that's, "How do we go places together?" So I think at each one of those stages ... And the other thing I would add, on top of that, is that ... Another thing, maybe another surprise of parenting, was just how quickly they change. So as a disabled person, I'm very used to figuring out how to do something, but then I get to do it that way every time. And nothing with him so far has been the same two months in a row. So it's figuring out the thing and then figuring it out again and again and again. So I would say, we practice everything many, many times before I do it on my own. So Micah will be there as I'm figuring out and troubleshooting something. When we first started learning, "How am I going to get Otto into the car seat?" We tried and trouble shot that together until I was very comfortable with it and I could do it on my own. Now, that looks like Micah and Otto and I, if we're going to go to a new place, we do it all together. We figure out, "What is our path going to be?" We talk to Otto about how he sticks with mama when we're here or there, we point out where the street is and where the sidewalk is. We just practice everything. So that's practical advice. I think, though, if I could say one thing, one piece of deep-hearted advice that I received from another disabled mom early on in this process, I was really grappling and frustrated with the fact that people were always trying to help me get Otto in the car seat for me, they were trying to take over that role for me. And I was just bristling at that so much. And in my trying to express why that was hard for me, I said something like, "I can do it faster anyway. They're just getting in the way and I know what I'm doing." And, my friend, which was true at the time, but my friend was, "You know what, Rebekah? Even if you weren't faster, even if it wasn't faster, you're his mom and that's something you get to do with him." Ardra Shephard: Oh, my God, yes. Rebekah Taussig: And that changed so much for me because then I was, "We can do this slow and that can be part of our thing." The thing that makes me a good mom for Otto isn't my speed at any of these things. It's me showing up as myself and being present with him. So- Ardra Shephard: Oh, my God, Rebecca. I love this anecdote. And I feel, again, this speaks to having to give people a pass because they want to help. I'm not a parent, but I've had Uber drivers try to buckle my seatbelt for me. Rebekah Taussig: Ugh. Ardra Shephard: I've had two friends at the same time notice my shoelace was untied and dropped to their knees at a race to see who could tie it for me. And you slow your role. But I love this idea of this is how our family does it and in our own time and just protecting that space for yourself, I think that's really great advice. For people with MS, mobility can be a challenge. I think more so than that, fatigue is something that can be quite disabling. And so I think that's actually really good advice for honoring your pace, whatever that looks like. I want to ask you how you balance feeling you have to prove that you're not just a good parent, but a capable one? Rebekah Taussig: I don't know. It's so hard. I don't know. I mean, this is very real for me. I do not leave the house without ... I mean, as soon as I leave the house, that's what I'm thinking about, as soon as we're in public ... And I don't know how that compares to other disabled parents. I've never really checked in on that. But, for me, I'm very aware of being watched. I'm very aware of the way that people perceive me. Ardra Shephard: Because I think it's one thing to say, "Who cares what anybody else thinks, but actually there could be consequences- Rebekah Taussig: Right. Ardra Shephard: ... if some busy body thinks you're not capable. Rebekah Taussig: Right, right. Exactly. There are really high stakes for that. When we were talking about some of the ableism that you might receive as a single person, it's, "Ugh, back off. That's annoying." But when I see you as helpless and now you're a parent, there is so much more at stake in that. And I feel that anxiety and pressure when I'm out in the world. But I think ... I just had this experience recently with Otto and it makes me think two years and maybe I am starting to build some callouses. The thing for us right now is that he hates getting out of his car seat. It's just ... Well, he hates getting in too, but he also hates getting out. It's just all of it is terrible. And so we have this driveway in front of our house, no garage or anything, so we're out, all of our neighbors can see us for this ritual of him protesting. And the other day he was just screaming, You could hear him down both streets and he is saying, "I don't want to get out." Just screaming. There's a neighbor across the street outside on Zoom just recording the whole thing. And so I knew that the fastest way that I could end into that would be to just yank him out of his car seat and force us to go inside and hide from the world. But I was, "What he needs for his voice to be heard, he needs me to be calm. We need to move through this slowly. And I don't want to force him. I don't want to yank him. I want us to collaborate and it's going to be messy." And so I just let him scream and I unbuckled him and I was very calm and I gave him space. I went to go get the mail, he's still screaming. I didn't leave him. I could see him, but I just went 10 feet to the side. And eventually a grasshopper showed up and I was, "Oh, look, there's a grasshopper. Come on." And so he got out and looked at it and we chased it to the backyard. So I was thinking about that later and thinking that is a moment where it matters what people think of us. People are watching and they can see this. And half of my brain is thinking, "Oh, I'm picturing one day when they're going to testify about how my son screamed or whatever," something. And then also I was, "I showed up as his mom and I know how to take care of him. I know what he needs and I trust that and I am just going to have to lean into that as much as I can and take care of him and let ..." I'm still anxious about the world, but I think it's a matter of tuning into that dynamic that I have with him as much as I can before I think about how people are perceiving things. Ardra Shephard: I think what you said about callouses really struck me because I think that's an unfortunate consequence is that we do have to build this armor against other people's impressions. But I think that's also why it's so great what you are doing with your visibility and sharing your experience on social media because change is slow, but it's sharing these stories that is what really matters and what helps drive change. Alex Hajjar: Yeah. It's so ingrained, thinking what other people are thinking of you. It conjures that scene in the book. I hope I'm not spoiling anything, but when you're trying to put groceries away and someone's staring at you, that's super awkward. But just creating those awkward spaces altogether, you just have to do that extra step of thinking and coming to, I guess, agreement with yourself that you're just going to get through this. So it's just extra and it's a bit of an extra shield that you have to put up. But in terms of what other people think, I guess, what I'm trying to ask is how does Micah react when someone throws shade or creates an anxious environment? Rebekah Taussig: It's interesting. Alex Hajjar: Does he react? Rebekah Taussig: I was actually talking to him about this recently because we talk about ableism and, I mean, he was with me every step during my dissertation of studying disability studies and ableism and all the microaggressions and all of it. We talk about it all the time. And yet he has a different experience than I do and often when we're out in the world, he doesn't pick up on a lot of stuff. He doesn't notice it until later. And I'm, "Did you see that? Did you hear that?" Or even if he does happen to clock something, it takes him a beat before he registers the implication of that. So I think the thing I am really grateful for with Micah is that he believes me when I say it and there's never any skepticism, "Oh, they weren't. Were they really staring?" He believes me and he knows and trusts me, but it's something that I am constantly reflecting on together for him to be able to see that himself because a lot of times he's just slower too. And I think when you've lived your entire life, or even not even your entire life, but just when you are used to living in your body and knowing what it's like to move through the world, you just are quicker to tune in and key into a lot of stuff. And I'm just, I guess, seeing the gap between our lived experiences in that way. Ardra Shephard: But I think, in my own experience, it's interesting because my partner, Cary, he didn't for a long time notice things and now he does start to notice and then when he points them out maybe I haven't noticed somebody staring- Rebekah Taussig: Oh, interesting. Ardra Shephard: ... and then he will point it out and then I'll be pissed at him. Rebekah Taussig: He can't win. He, basically, can't win. Ardra Shephard: Yeah, no. I think people with MS especially, but moms, in general, have guilt, that mom guilt. And I think with MS or any disability, there's this feeling of guilt about the things they maybe can't do with their children or this worry about how MS might impact their kids. Can you speak to that experience? Rebekah Taussig: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, to be honest, I don't think that I really started to feel that until Otto was here. So when he was just an imaginary baby or a lump of clay I was going to mold, I didn't really process that. And then once he was here, and especially once he started talking and I realized that he would one day grow up to tell his own story of what it was like to grow up with a disabled mom, it suddenly felt very real and scary for me. And the idea that he would have a story where he might say, "Yeah, this part of being the son of a disabled mom was hard," that was breathtaking, to me, to imagine. But I think what I have started to realize slowly and is becoming more real to me is just recognizing the inherent limitation built into parenthood for everyone. Every single parent, and I mean, literally, every single parent on earth has some, if not many, multiple powerful limitations of some kind, whether that's going to be financial or maybe it's education. I'm even constantly thinking, "Oh, I wish I had a childhood development degree. If I could just understand what was even happening." Maybe it's emotional awareness or self-awareness or parents who don't have a sense of humor. I don't know what it is. But there's all kinds of limitations. Ardra Shephard: That is such a great point. Yes, it's such a great point. Rebekah Taussig: Well, and the idea that we would somehow be able to avoid that or that there's some version of parenting where it's limitless, "I have everything I need to be able to offer you." I mean, I think that the great grief that most parents get to at some point is, "I wish I had this for you and I don't. That doesn't mean that I don't have all of these other things to give you. I have all of this to give you and I will give all of that to you." And then, hopefully, as I think I've experienced with my own parents, they gave me everything they had to offer. And then as you get older, you are able to fill in some gaps and there are other people around. I think that, as a parent, I want to be able to be everything to my son. I want to be 100% the son and the moon and give every single thing he needs to him. But that's not even good for him. He needs bonds with other people. He needs to experience the great wide world and get gifts from all over as much as I am greedy and want to be the only source of life for him. And so we're all limited like our kids. Alex Hajjar: We all need to scrape our knees at some point. Rebekah Taussig: Yes [inaudible 00:29:12]. Ardra Shephard: Yeah, you've got to go through some shit, right? Alex Hajjar: Yeah, it helps you- Ardra Shephard: Totally. Alex Hajjar: ... think and it builds character and all that old school stuff, but it does to a certain extent work. You can't have a bubble around you all the time. Rebekah Taussig: Yeah, it's a built-in deal. Alex Hajjar: Exactly. Yeah. Something I maybe thought about for a microsecond, but my aunt has had MS since the '80s, so it was in my family. So I was thinking some people worry about passing MS along to their kids. The risk is very low, but it's not nothing. But what advice would you have for people who are thinking about starting a family on somewhat uncertain futures? Rebekah Taussig: Yeah. I mean, I guess, I don't want to be trite about that. I know that that's a real thing to consider and that people grapple with on their own. But I also think ... I know that uncertainty is just built into our world and into living here. Uncertainty is a part of living. And I think the idea ... I think that it's a great fiction that we all cling to, myself included, that life can be certain, that we can create a path that is going to go the way that we planned because we did all the steps. But the thing is, and it's not just disability, it's not just uncertainty in our bodies. What's going to happen to our planet in the next few decades? What about the global pandemics in the States? What's going to happen to democracy? I don't know. Ardra Shephard: This is all birth control for me. Rebekah Taussig: Well, yes, I mean, honestly, it's real. And so, I guess, all that to say, the more that we can develop strength around uncertainty and bring uncertainty close and know that that is just part of life, I think the more equipped we are for any part of it, whether we have kids or not. So I don't want to be flippant, but I do think- Alex Hajjar: You can't help [inaudible 00:31:17]. Rebekah Taussig: ... at the end of the day that that's, again, built in. Limitations are built in,- Alex Hajjar: Right. Rebekah Taussig: ... uncertainty is built in. This is a part of the fabric of life. Alex Hajjar: Yeah, I think we grow up with this, at least in my experience, this illusion of choice. And I was talking to a friend about this recently and he said this, "But you have an illusion of choice. You have this, 'I'm going to grow up, I'm going to get married, I'm going to have kids and follow this formula.' But then you get there and you can't have kids or you're told you can't have kids and you don't know how to question it and all that stuff that comes with it." And it's uncertain- Rebekah Taussig: [inaudible 00:31:53]. Alex Hajjar: ... and it's hard and you can't just say, "Oh, I'm going to blow it off or I'm going to cop out." But there just really isn't the choice sometimes. Rebekah Taussig: Right. Well, I think especially when it comes to having a kid, we think about, "Oh, my kid might have this ..." I don't know. Some kind of genetic marker of some kind or the other. But the thing is your kid could be, and will be, anything. When you have a kid, that kid could be any kind of kid. And as he grows up, anything could happen, and he could ... Anything. I mean, when we think about having a second kid, we're, "This child could be any kind of human." We don't know. I mean, again, I think that we have built a lot of fiction into how much control we have over who our kids are, and they're their own people and that is true in all ways. Ardra Shephard: I mean, I also want to say that, of course, I wouldn't wish an MS diagnosis on anyone's child, but I think it's important that we don't double down on this narrative that a life with MS is not a livable one. So I think the idea of maybe I don't want to have kids because I'm worried about passing MS along, is an unsettling message for me. I, of course, would prefer life without MS, but I'm glad I'm here and my life is pretty full already. So, I mean, these are murky big things to question and everyone has to do what's right for them. But certainly it can be a bit of a scary message to say. Anyway. Rebekah Taussig: Yeah. Well, to be honest, I think that ... And this became clear to me after Otto was born, I guess, because I realized, again, how little control there is. But I think that if you are worried about, or thinking, "I can't have a kid who might have MS or something like that," it feels like maybe you don't want to have a kid at all? Ardra Shephard: Yeah. Rebekah Taussig: Because maybe that's what that means because there are so many things that might happen to this child. And probably this kid will not be what you imagined, probably in some ways. And so if that's too difficult or if that feels like if that does not a choice you want to make, then maybe that means that you don't want to have a kid, which is fine. Not everybody has to have a child. There are so many beautiful things about being without a child to take care of also. So there's beauty on both sides. Ardra Shephard: Rebekah, what is something positive your disabled experience brings to your parenting? Rebekah Taussig: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot. I think it feels like presents that I'm unfolding as I go through life with him. But I think one thing that is coming to me as we've had this conversation is thinking that in a lot of ways I think that my disability forces me to be the parent that I would like to be or want to be. I think that I would like to be the parent who moves slowly with my son, who is there present with him to take the detour and notice the thing on the path as we're going along. And I think that my disability forces me to do that even when it's inconvenient, even if I was able to do something else, I might. I think it forces me to collaborate with him more instead of forcing him to do things more. I want to be that parent. And so I'm grateful that I'm pushed in that direction and I think that that spreads to our whole family ecosystem that we're able to follow a different path, a slower path, a meandering path, a collaborative path. And I don't know that we would do that because there's lots of otherwise. I think there's lots of ways in which having a toddler brings out a side of you of, "No, this is what we're doing and we have to do it now." And I don't want to be that parent. And so I am grateful that I have lots of encouragement to do things a different way. Ardra Shephard: I mean, modern life is so busy and so fast paced. I would argue that people with chronic illness or disabilities actually do have to take more time to be thoughtful and to think about how they're going to parent and maybe be more intentional than you could if you were otherwise doing it off the cuff. Rebekah Taussig: [inaudible 00:36:41]. Ardra Shephard: So I think you get to stop and hang out with grasshoppers from time to time. Rebekah Taussig: Yeah, [inaudible 00:36:48]. Ardra Shephard: I think that's really beautiful. Rebekah, I could talk to you all damn day. I don't even have- Rebekah Taussig: Right. Ardra Shephard: ... kids but, oh, my God, this conversation just blew by. Rebekah Taussig: Aw. Ardra Shephard: Thank you for being here. You can follow Rebekah on Insta. It's sitting_pretty. Her book is also called Sitting Pretty. Troopers, parenting is hard, regardless of ability. Parenting with MS might involve some thoughtful considerations, some additional supports but, in most cases, MS doesn't have to stop you from parenting if that's your jam. And here's some good news. Research from the National Council on Disability shows that children of disabled people grow up to have better than average coping and problem solving skills. They have a greater acceptance of difference. They're more empathetic. Kids with disabled parents tend not to sweat the small stuff. Parenting isn't about being able to run or climb stairs. Parenting is about loving, supporting, teaching and nurturing. MS can't take those skills away from you. So go forth and multiply, Trippers. Thanks for listening and thanks again, Rebekah, for being here. Rebekah Taussig: Thank you. I really could talk to you all day so thank you for this time. Ardra Shephard: This was awesome. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Tripping on Air. Don't forget to visit us at trippingonair.com.