Ardra Shephard: I'm Ardra Shepherd and this is Tripping on Air, a place to talk shit about what it's like to have MS. Normally I like to make everything about me, but MS also affects the people we love. So weighing in from the partner perspective is Alex Hajjar, my friend whose wife also has MS. Join us monthly as we dish about everything from symptoms to stigma. If you have MS or you love someone who does, we want to connect with you. Whether you hate Mondays or your mother-In-law, we all get sucked into a complaining vortex from time to time. I get props all over the internet for how I handle MS, but in real life, 90% of the words I say to my best friend, to my husband, to my mom, to Alex are complaints. In France where complaining can be considered a national pastime. I might be called [foreign language 00:00:56]. Not only does complainer sound better in French, it's also not really an insult. The French take pride in being critical, discerning and having a refined sense of taste. Where an optimist sees a glass half full and a pessimist sees a glass half empty, a [foreign language 00:01:15] sees tap water that tastes like sulfur and isn't cold enough. There's a smudge on the glass, and also they asked for sparkling. Meanwhile, in North America and certainly in Canada, we put more value on sucking it up, on keeping our suffering to ourselves. It's okay, that smudge was probably my fault, and now that I think about it, I actually like the taste of sulfur. I'll just fish this fruit fly out with my fork. There's a time and a place for complaining, and if you have MS, chances are you have more than your fair share of legitimate beefs. Complaining gets a bad rap, but sometimes complaining can work for us, and we're going to talk about why. Alex, are you a complainer? What are your biggest beefs, pet peeves? What can you not let go? Alex Hajjar: Oh, my goodness. I thrive on misery, to be perfectly honest, my friend gave me a beer last week and he told me it was from Ecuador and the first thing out of my mouth was, wow, what a high carbon footprint. I'm a thoroughbred moaner. Perhaps living in England also helps with that pedigree, but while I'm trying to embrace the chaos now, it's usually the small stuff that bothers me the most, people jumping a queue is a classic thing that irritates me. People who text too much and then also people who don't text enough and office workers who can't manage to figure out how Zoom works, four years after we all started working from home, it's the nitty-gritty that really gets to me. Ardra Shephard: I mean, I have a real problem with over poached eggs, but slamming a gift on a podcast is like next level cranky. Alex Hajjar: That's what I'm talking about though. You asked and I answered, so I feel like I've delivered there. Ardra Shephard: Okay, well, how about when someone asks how you're doing, how are you, are you honest? Alex Hajjar: I want to say often, but almost never. But even when I'm placating, I try to mention the small wins that I've had here and there, basically to reassure myself. Ardra Shephard: You're a complainer, but you draw the line at how you're doing physically. Is that... Alex Hajjar: I think it's a matter of self-awareness, right? I know that I'm kind of cranky all the time, but also I want to make sure that I also understand that I am doing okay as well. Ardra Shephard: Okay, fair enough. Yeah. I personally am the worst. I'm telling you everything, which you already know that, right? Alex Hajjar: TMI. Ardra Shephard: You know that about me. Yeah. Listen, I think this is a really important topic because one of the first kind of don't complain lessons we internalize after an MS diagnosis is this pressure to be a so-called palatable patient, to be that plucky, upbeat, optimistic, I have MS, but MS doesn't have me kind of energy. We want to feel like we're not hard to be around, and that kind of vibe doesn't leave a lot of room to vent or be real. So I think for me, one of the first advantages, one of the pros of complaining, one of the benefits is just being able to process emotions, vent so you don't spiral out of control, but also ditch the guilt that comes with not living up to the stoic sick person we think we're supposed to be. There's no right or wrong way to have MS. Alex Hajjar: Yeah, I agree. Maybe I'm old school, but I used to complain to friends about stuff and we used to have a collective moan, which was validating back then, but I find more recently that a lot of people will deflect and say, have you thought about therapy? My dude, I don't want to discuss my childhood here. I just want to chat for shit 30 minutes about how bad my day was, if that makes sense. Ardra Shephard: Therapy is pretty popular right now. Alex Hajjar: I mean, therapy's great and everybody should do it, but if I just want to complain on a sort of surface level, I think if we're close enough, we should be able to bear that burden. Ardra Shephard: I totally agree, because that's almost like saying, dude, your problems are... Like, I can't handle them. You need a professional, right? Alex Hajjar: Right. That could be Sophia if it's just like, whoa, this guy didn't signal to get in front of me today, and that's annoying. Ardra Shephard: Okay, fair enough. It's probably no surprise to anyone that swearing is one of my favorite ways to complain, and I want to cite Emma Byrne, a computational neuroscientist who wrote a book called Swearing is Good for You. She cites a study that says swearing can increase pain tolerance. It can bring us together. It can communicate pain and empathy. There's a real use for swearing. It even evolutionary advantages. She talks about how chimpanzees even swear. Where do you weigh in on that, Alex? Alex Hajjar: I mean, this is the place to talk shit about. So I think we're in the right spot. Ardra Shephard: This podcast here, Tripping on Air, right? Alex Hajjar: Yeah. That's the whole... That's the byline, right? I love swearing too. It's one of my favorite things. Nicole's even started echoing my classic lines before I can get them out, but does that mean she's easing the pain of my big toe when I smash it into the coffee table? Maybe I need to thank her more. Ardra Shephard: She is, right? She's commiserating. She's saying, I get it. This super sucks too. Alex Hajjar: Yeah. Yeah. Ardra Shephard: I am the aunt who has told the nieces and nephews that they get to say a swear on their birthday and it is the birthday swear. It's a big hit. It's really like, they think about it for weeks leading up to it, what the swear word's going to be. Alex Hajjar: I like that. Maybe it breeds like they're going to really appreciate the use of swearing when they get older. They have to think about it. It's going to cut even that more deep. I can appreciate that. Ardra Shephard: They come up with some good ones. My one niece in particular has invented the concept of the super swear. Which is- Alex Hajjar: I'm interested. Ardra Shephard: Yeah, it's mostly just say as many swear words as you can in one breath and that counts as one word. Alex Hajjar: Oh, okay. So she kind fits a hyphen in between each swear, so they become one fluid swear. I like this. Ardra Shephard: It doesn't actually feel like complaining as much as a celebration. You cannot get through it without laughing. It's very funny. Alex Hajjar: Yeah, I think that should be part of it, but yeah. Cool. Ardra Shephard: You mentioned Nicole co-signing your cursing. What about when Nicole complains about her MS, how do you respond to that? Because I know for me there's a big guilt piece of it, because it's one thing when it's like your partner, it's the person you're kind of complaining to all the time. Alex Hajjar: Yeah. I think it's something that we've both grown into the dynamic we deal with now, whereas before, see, I'm very kind solution-based, which I know is not a great thing. A lot of it sometimes, but where somebody will complain, Nicole will complain about something, and then I immediately go into how can we solve this, as if it's a problem that could be solved. That was not really helpful most of the time. So in the instances where I think Nicole is moaning about something to do with MS, I've learned to try and take a back seat and just listen and absorb it and just validate it and say, that sucks or that's terrible, or maybe I'll get a blanket or an extra pillow or something like that, but there's nothing that I can really do to ease that stuff, but maybe swear a bit as well. Pepper in some swear. Ardra Shephard: So I'm just thinking about last week when Kerry asked me where I wanted my coffee and I said six feet underground. Alex Hajjar: Oh my God. Ardra Shephard: He didn't even look up. Alex Hajjar: That is dark. Ardra Shephard: He didn't even look up. He just didn't even react. So I feel like that's how numb he is to my complaints at this point. It's probably good. We don't both need to spiral, but also... Alex Hajjar: I know, but I think the complaining does need to be heard and it's good if it's not responded to with like, well, how can we solve this? I get that vibe too. I'm there. Ardra Shephard: No, but you do make a good point, Alex, because not every crazy thing I say needs to be indulged, but it does beg the question of how do you sound an alarm? Especially when you have chronic symptoms and there's something going on all the time. It's like how then do you communicate, okay, I really need you to listen and help. Maybe it's just starting to cry basically. That can happen too. Alex Hajjar: I mean I think it's early on in this episode, but I mean communication again is like, just keeps coming to the top sometimes and this is a form of it, right? Swearing and complaining. Ardra Shephard: I think you also, we all have our own kind of marital love language. So I think hopefully we're in tune with when there's an actual freak out and when I'm just being dramatic and maybe I need a little bit more sleep or a medically induced coma. Alex Hajjar: That's hilarious because often enough, my mother-in-law is hanging out here and Nicole and I are literally just talking. To me and Nicole, it's very much a conversation, a regular volume conversation. But my mother-in-law just thinks we're arguing and we're at each other's necks or something like that, and I'm like, this is just us talking. So that's how it works in our house. So complaining is a thing, but to us it's just talking. So maybe it's an evolutionary thing. Sorry to interrupt you. Ardra Shephard: Well, no, it's a comfort level thing. I think it's an intimacy thing, which kind of brings me to my next point, which is this saying misery loves company kind of sounds like a miserable thing to say, but sharing our struggles actually does build community and connections. It's always been important for me to connect with other people who have MS, who get it. What's your experience with that, Alex? Alex Hajjar: Yeah, so my experience with I guess trying to connect with people in the MS ecosystem is support groups and they can have that effect, but sometimes it can also get a bit dark even for me. So I've taken breaks from time to time from support groups. My time that I spent in Britain opened up a whole new lush landscape of negativity, which I actually took on with zeal and I used to have workmates who had work in the field and in the office who I loved complaining with, but it was like a fun version of complaining. My friend Claire was this complete firecracker and we used to spend days kicking off about every little thing. When I went there for a visit and I saw... A couple of years ago, we had dinner and we kind of just picked up where we left off, happily chatting about how dreadful everything was, but I left with a smile on my face and I think if you're with people and you're all in the right mood of gray or shade of gray, then the world can be a beautiful place. Ardra Shephard: Is it also possible that just complaining in French, complaining sounds better with a British accent? Is that possible? Alex Hajjar: It definitely does. Yeah. I feel like- Ardra Shephard: It's a little bit more upscale. Alex Hajjar: I lived in a city called Leeds, which is up north. It's not always touted as this sort of upper echelon of class, but at the same time, the twang there is very romantic and I do appreciate when people talk shit in that accent. I do love it. It adds a layer of fun. Ardra Shephard: I think complaining also can be a great way to solve problems. You mentioned earlier that a lot of the time people don't want to be met with a solution to a complaint, and I think that's just about listening and paying attention to the kind of complaint, but it can lead to solutions sometimes. For example, I recently posted on social media complaining about how hard it's getting to hold a hairdryer and dry my hair and how exhausting that is, and I got so many comments with helpful suggestions. I ended up buying a stand just like a hairdryer mount that I got on Amazon for relatively inexpensive, total crowdsourced solution to a problem. I wish I'd done it two years ago. Super awesome. So it can be beneficial that way. But then I also want to add that when you're with your doctor, I feel like a lot of people also don't fully complain about what's going on, and that's a mistake. It can be tempting when you have a chronic illness that doesn't have a cure like MS to sort of assume that symptoms also can't be managed. A lot of times there are things that can improve the situation, but we have to make them known. You have to complain to your doctor. Alex Hajjar: I think we can also talk about advocacy here. That's sort of the useful side of complaining at the end of the day. When my band looks for shows, looks to book shows, one of my questions is always, is the venue accessible? Where are the toilets? Ardra Shephard: I love that. Alex Hajjar: Yeah, I want to mention this again because Toronto sucks for accessibility, nightlife in the sort of nightlife areas. I also want everyone to be able to enjoy music or comedy or even the beach with zero barriers. I think complaining to the right people is critical in this endeavor. So local councilors, MPs or MPPs can have a positive outcome. It's not just about... This is political too in a way, and it kind of goes against the ethos of being a palatable patient quote unquote. But being a squeaky wheel sometimes does get you the grease, especially if you rally your friends or other community members to do the same. Ardra Shephard: I totally agree. It's how change happens. I think if it's hard for you to advocate for yourself, think about all of the other people that are in the same situation, and if we think about it as complaining on behalf of our neighbor or our friend or whoever else that is facing the same barrier or obstacle or injustice, that can make us feel less, I don't know, complainy about it, if that makes sense. Alex Hajjar: Yeah, I mean I guess we should maybe, I don't know if it's worth mentioning, maybe don't white knight for people because that's a thing too. But I mean if there's a cause that's important that will serve a community, definitely finding out who the right people to appeal to is something that does work and has proven to work in the past. Ardra Shephard: Yeah, I definitely say like not white knighting, but I mean if it's like I can feel like I'm being a pain in the ass, asking for my osteopath to put in a ramp at the door, but if I think of little Bertha... Alex Hajjar: Bertha. Ardra Shephard: Coming in after me, yeah, that's somebody older and who could also benefit from that ramp. It's not just about me feeling extra. It's about this isn't just for me, it's for the greater community. It benefits more people than just me. Alex Hajjar: Absolutely. Ardra Shephard: That's all I'm saying. Alex Hajjar: Sorry, I only question Bertha because the last interaction I had was... I think I was 12 and I was in North Carolina and there was a hurricane called Bertha, and that's the only other Bertha that I know. Ardra Shephard: Did you know that people are statistically more likely to donate to a natural disaster that shares their name? So I feel like Bertha was a poor choice from a fundraising perspective. Alex Hajjar: I don't know how many civil war people still live. That's the last era I can imagine people being called Bertha. So I'm not sure. Ardra Shephard: That was a little aside. So just maybe- Alex Hajjar: Let's get back on track. Ardra Shephard: Like Mike or Dave or whatever. Those are your money making hurricane. I can think of a few people in my life who I can winch to who will say, well, did you think about it this way? Especially if a text comes through and you read it with that saucy pissy voice and it's like, well, maybe they meant it in this tone of voice. Have you thought about it this way? Do you have people in your life, Alex, who when you complain, they can actually help you with context or reframe or think about things differently? Alex Hajjar: I think I've mentioned them, most of them here before, anyways. Nicole's a big one. I always kind of make fun of her in a way because I always say she's never on my side. She's never willing to just agree that what I'm complaining about is valid. Ardra Shephard: Hate the same shit you hate. Alex Hajjar: Yeah, just let me be right here even though I know I'm fundamentally wrong. Nicole is a big one for that. My friend Jaffer, my friend Soren and another friend called Angela, these people often have me stopping sort of dead in my tracks to reconsider my point of view. I'm no angel, but I try to keep an open mind and in my opinion, I think friends should be people that accept you but also challenge you and you should be open to shifting opinion. All of these people have different backgrounds and journeys and experiences and I'm only one dude and I need those other opinions, so I don't go walking around some overconfident, d-bag, sort of bludgeoning other people with a single perspective. So I really appreciate having people in my circle that are different and have different experiences than me and then will also say that maybe my perspective isn't the right one and here's another one. Then again, it's a two-step thing where I have to be accepting of that. Ardra Shephard: I love that. Also, when they do agree with you about how you've been egregiously wronged, it carries even more weight. Alex Hajjar: Yeah, it's much more important. Like I said, it's good to be challenged. I think it's good to be challenged. Ardra Shephard: We talk about relationships and MS and those dynamics, and I touched a little bit about feeling guilty for complaining about MS to my partner, which is inevitable. That's who's going to hear about it. He doesn't complain ever, really about anything, but mostly he would never think to complain about how MS impacts him to me and he needs to have that outlet. I think it's really important. I think it makes sense. I understand why he doesn't want to burden me with that, but what's your advice on that, Alex, for partners of how and where and to whom they should communicate their complaints about the impact of MS in a way that's going to keep the relationship, whether it's friends or parents or partners healthy? Alex Hajjar: Yeah, I think, man, it's an interesting question. I mean for me, I don't know if I address MS specifically with Nicole, my frustrations or something with how it impacts me. But I think we're at a point where, or I'd like to believe we're at a point where if I'm complaining about how MS is impacting me as a partner, she's not like, oh, that's my fault, kind of thing. So there is a level of understanding that way. A friend of mine who I've made through our connections in the MS world and stuff, my friend Mike, he's someone I usually go walking with. We go on long walks in the park, we talk about our own frustrations together and that's good because we're both partners. So we both... We're not offending anybody or there's no risk of maybe offending somebody if that's the case. It's just two friends walking and chatting about their experiences and stuff like that. Then, yeah, like I said, I've been to support groups, but again, sometimes they can get a bit dark and then maybe you don't get a chance to air your... They can be helpful, but they can also, you might not get a chance to speak if there's 25 people in a room. So that might not always be the best place to go. But I think we have one-on-one connections and understanding and stuff like that, but I feel like I've invited Carrie out. Carrie needs to come hang out with us. Ardra Shephard: I think that's a really good idea because... That it is actually tough to find somebody in that situation talked a lot about connecting with somebody else with MS, but for partners to connect also, it feels like even harder to find, but that it can be very, very useful. Alex Hajjar: I mean, the way that I've framed it and maybe just me, but MS is not Nicole, it doesn't define her. That would be such a tragic thing to be such a single dimension part of your personality. So it's kind of like this ugly roommate that we live with and we can complain about it, but we're not complaining about each other. Ardra Shephard: I really love that you say it's not her fault. I feel like there's no way to say that too many times, even though we logically know it's true, it's a very nice reminder all the time. Alex Hajjar: So you've made a really solid case for complaining, but there has to be a downside. Nobody wants to be around someone who's complaining all the time. Ardra Shephard: I mean, it sounds like you're complaining all the time. You still have friends. I want to hang out with you. I feel like I'd rather hang out with Larry David or Rick Mercer any day than somebody who is toxic positivity, just drowning and look at my perfect life, right? Complaining doesn't mean you can't also be optimistic and appreciate your life. I think we're really using the word complaining, but we're really just talking about being real and expressing what's going on and how you really feel. It's just extra important, I feel like for people with MS because we are sort of handed this diagnosis with this expectation of how we're going to handle it, how we're going to be tough and plucky and optimistic and cheerful, and I got this all the time and I think there's definitely a downside to that and a real pressure to feel like if I am not easy to be around, people aren't going to want to be around me, and that's a terrible burden to carry on top of what MS is already doing. Alex Hajjar: Yeah, I think we have to ensure that complaining is only one side of the scale, and this is basically echoing I think what you've said and we have to balance it out with some realistic expectations. Groups can be a good thing, but they're also, they can kind of spiral you into a bad place if everyone's spiraling. But I've also found that a lot of people don't want solutions to come from the outside. They just want to vent and they'll find their own way back to a good space. I'm here for that too. Ardra Shephard: Yeah, I mean, you're right. Complaining can definitely snowball, and I've heard a lot of experiences that were not great in support groups, in-person support groups, but even some social media support groups. What's the change there, Alex? Because we obviously need these sort of settings, but it's like, I think the... What's thee word I'm looking for, the instinct is to flee the group rather than to try to redirect it or change it. I mean maybe there's an opportunity there. Have you ever been in a situation where a group was just getting super dark and how do you sort of reframe that energy or you just get it? Alex Hajjar: I ran. So to be perfectly honest with you, I ran from that one and I haven't been back really since. But I think the issue is more with... With groups especially, and it was an online group. It's like there is someone leading the group or there's someone meant to be sort of curating the group and the discussion and that person was not taking a hold of the conversation and I'm not professionally or even casually trained to mediate group therapy sessions, so I don't want to necessarily step in because again, if I'm complaining about what this person's talking about, they might feel very strongly about it and they need to get it off their chest and then I'm like, whoa, you can't talk about that, so that's borderline harmful, or whatever, what you're talking about. I shouldn't be the one stepping in either. It is literally the people who are running the group that are responsible for that sort of delegation. So yeah, I think the lack of direction from the people leading the group was bad enough that I just stopped going for a while. I've considered going back, but again, I'm like, I don't know if it's kind of the wild west. I'm not always prepared to be in the wild west of people's darkness and I have other outlets that are much more filled with light. Like I said, when I go walking with my friends or anything like that, it's a much more positive experience than that. Ardra Shephard: I think those are good things to pay attention to. Your walks in the woods sound great. I think you also maybe have a pint at a bar from time to time too. Alex Hajjar: Once in a while we do indulge. Yes. Yeah. Ardra Shephard: I think- Alex Hajjar: Which kind of negates the walk. Ardra Shephard: No, it does not, not at all. You can do both. There's a time and a place for both, and I think that's really what you have to pay attention to as a complainer is to notice when it's going off the rails is if you feel worse instead of relieved. If you just feel darker and grumpier instead of like you got supported and something off your chest, then it's maybe to think this is not productive complaining. I think also for me personally, recognizing where you're in a situation, where you're not going to be heard or helped. Every phone call I've had with an airline or an internet service provider and recently the frickin elevators in my building that are constantly out of service, the elevators don't care that I made a scene and they don't care. If you just end up feeling worse. It's like when I'm in the car with my husband and he gets frustrated, let's say with another bad driver. I'm like, he can't hear you, only I can and I can't change that for you. Alex Hajjar: I'm guilty of that. Ardra Shephard: You make the inside of the car toxic, like that guy can't hear you. Tone it down. Then just anytime you are blaming yourself for something that also feels pretty gross to me, that's not good complaining. Alex Hajjar: Most things are external. There's only so much story that you can control about what's going on around you, and if complaining is the first thing that you do every time, that's okay. But there's, like I said before, kind of embrace the chaos is this sort of ethos that I'm trying to take on now because there's so little actual control that we have over things. It's easier I think to mediate or regulate my emotional reaction to stuff than it is to just blindly start complaining right away. That slows my heart rate down to a normal speed. Ardra Shephard: It's a fine line. It's definitely a balance we all need to figure out. Fellow complainers, [foreign language 00:30:27]. I prefer to think of us as problem identifiers. Whether you need to vet, connect with others or crowdsource solutions, complaining can lead to improved outcomes. If pessimists think that no one is listening, that no one cares, then complainers are the ultimate optimists. We believe things can be better, that things can change. If you enjoyed this episode, like comment, subscribe, and if there's something you want to get off your chest, leave it in the comments. All vibes, welcome. Thanks for listening to Tripping on Air. Don't forget to visit us at TrippingOnAir.com.